Sync Thunderbird and TT-RSS

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Re: Sync Thunderbird and TT-RSS

Postby sleeper_service » 03 Sep 2013, 21:14

virgo wrote:
fox wrote:Desktop MUA is an obsolete curiosity regardless of it using IMAP or not. Good web based client will provide the exact same functionality while being much easier to access. Convergence, people. We're not in 1990 anymore.

I don't know. I have yet to see good web paged mail client (that I personally would consider good - your opinion can be different and probably is). And with standalone program I can use same user interface to access multiple accounts. But for each his own. It's nice, that web based interfaces exist as a possibility.
But it's now totally offtopic:)


perhaps he's written ttmail, a great multi mailbox web email client and he's just holding out on us.

eh, Fox?

e: as to being offtopic, this makes more sense, and is more useful than the orginal poster.

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Re: Sync Thunderbird and TT-RSS

Postby Saliency » 03 Sep 2013, 22:27

The derail is more interesting then the orig :)

Thoughts/Rant:

1) The incentives/economics of creating desktop apps are far different then that of web apps.
Most web apps are designed to be saas. As so the creators don't have incentive to make them open and standardized. Having a proprietary network allows them to extract rents. Open source projects do not suffer this incentive problem but are slower to develop then commercial projects.

2) A separate service for data is good for consumers bad for rent seekers.
Data services like IMAP are good for consumers but not companies trying to make money via saas model.
Why aren't FB and G+ just presentation layers accessing the same sets of data? Probably because that is how it evolved. But it remains so because if FB opened up an API they would loose the ability to extract rents. When they change the privacy settings their would be less friction for people to leave. The end result though is a winner takes (most) all system, where users are all forced to use the same homogeneous interface*.

If people paid for data services things might be different but people don't.
"if you are not paying for the service you are not the customer you are the product."

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Re: Sync Thunderbird and TT-RSS

Postby fox » 03 Sep 2013, 22:52

Email is the kinda thing where fuckoff huge cloud service like gmail makes a lot of sense because of e.g. distributed antispam; also being fuckoff huge helps beat various retards into accepting your mail which otherwise can easily become problematic.

Self hosting email is a constant headache, personally I have both the resources and ability to do so but its definitely not for anyone normal and shitty vps in known fuck you spammers is not going to cut it.

So don't expect ttmail because its largely pointless.

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Re: Sync Thunderbird and TT-RSS

Postby fox » 03 Sep 2013, 22:56

By making sense I mean it brings tangible value to acual users as opposed to self hosted oss groupware (all of which are shit anyway but its beside the point atm) not just the provider milking them for ad revenue.

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Re: Sync Thunderbird and TT-RSS

Postby fox » 03 Sep 2013, 23:05

Anyway my point was about MUAs which are a rudiment since gmail popped into existence. Personally I switched from gnus and I cant fathom going back. You need a server somewhere anyway for mobile push, pop3 pc time is over.

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Re: Sync Thunderbird and TT-RSS

Postby slemapa » 03 Sep 2013, 23:12

fox wrote:Desktop MUA is an obsolete curiosity regardless of it using IMAP or not. Good web based client will provide the exact same functionality while being much easier to access. Convergence, people. We're not in 1990 anymore.


Well, no! I'm sorry but you are badly wrong.
You know, a web based MUA is just another mail client and there are really not many good web based ones. They give you one advantage - access, but besides that most of them suck.
First of all, they are way slower than desktop clients. Second, there are no good ones. Gmail, hotmail etc does not even allow IDN, an old standard. The only IDN aware web based email client I know of is roundcube, the rest sucks badly. Many fail at showing html-mail correctly, a task one would believe should be easy since they are web based. Threading does not work correctly in most web based mail clients. It's fucked up in gmail, in hotmail and not ok in roundcube. Not even roundcube does everything right even though it is better than most other web based MUA:s. Web based MUA:s do not handle pgp/gpg very well. In fact, most suck at it. Web based email clients mostly fail when it comes to filtering.
The one feature a desktop MUA gives you is better access (but that I get in my phone) but if you use a web based MUA you are using an inferior MUA. If you are willing to trade access for less functionality it's your decision but most web based MUA:s are really in a state of tragedy. They are ok for people not using IDN, for people who do not get a lot of email, for people who do not use gpg and for people who do not follow a lot of lists, but for everyone else - FAIL.

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Re: Sync Thunderbird and TT-RSS

Postby sleeper_service » 03 Sep 2013, 23:15

fox wrote:So don't expect ttmail because its largely pointless.


hey, I'd use it, you'd maybe use it, what more do you need ;)

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Re: Sync Thunderbird and TT-RSS

Postby sleeper_service » 03 Sep 2013, 23:21

slemapa wrote:
web based MUA most of them suck. Second, there are no good ones. the rest sucks badly. It's fucked up in gmail, In fact, most suck at it. if you use a web based MUA you are using an inferior MUA. are really in a state of tragedy. but for everyone else - FAIL.


I'm not sure I get your point, what are you trying to say?

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Re: Sync Thunderbird and TT-RSS

Postby fox » 03 Sep 2013, 23:35

sleeper_service wrote:hey, I'd use it, you'd maybe use it, what more do you need ;)


I wouldn't use it because ^. I actually ran self hosted email for a few months and the tedium of it is overbearing. It's not even worth it from tinfoil hat privacy perspective because unless you only email yourself everyone else is on some hosted service so NSA is going to read it anyway.

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Re: Sync Thunderbird and TT-RSS

Postby fox » 03 Sep 2013, 23:42

slemapa wrote:You know, a web based MUA is just another mail client and there are really not many good web based ones.


One is enough. Outlook.com is pretty okay too.

First of all, they are way slower than desktop clients.


I'm not sure if you have heard about it what with you writing us from 1990, but we people of 2013 generally have fast enough internet access which makes this argument void.

I mean gmail works great over EDGE. How low can you expect to go. V.21 dialup?

Second, there are no good ones. Gmail, hotmail etc does not even allow IDN, an old standard. The only IDN aware web based email client I know of is roundcube, the rest sucks badly.


Okay see nobody actually cares about this. Try to understand that. What people care about is not needing to install some stupid .exe because email. Which is why nobody is doing that and outside of people who suffer outlook at work the market for desktop MUAs has been dead for years.

You could not possibly have picked less spergtastic reason to criticise gmail, so props to you for that.

Web based email clients mostly fail when it comes to filtering.


Really. I'd like to see a person for whom gmail filtering is somehow not enough.

They are ok for people not using IDN, for people who do not get a lot of email, for people who do not use gpg and for people who do not follow a lot of lists, but for everyone else - FAIL.


What you mean to say is they are okay for everyone save for a handful of - I dunno, not even nerds, because nerds use gmail or w/e - maybe super nerds? Hyper sperg nerds? Something like that.

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Re: Sync Thunderbird and TT-RSS

Postby fox » 03 Sep 2013, 23:44

sleeper_service wrote:I'm not sure I get your point, what are you trying to say?


This is some kind of poetry I think. Wailing of a suffering ubernerd who is tragically denied IDN in gmail.

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Re: Sync Thunderbird and TT-RSS

Postby Saliency » 03 Sep 2013, 23:59


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Re: Sync Thunderbird and TT-RSS

Postby ldidry » 04 Sep 2013, 00:21

Really. I'd like to see a person for whom gmail filtering is somehow not enough.


Me. Gmail is a fucking box of shit.
I mean, 1/4 of my "spams" are real emails. Thank you Gmail.
I hate Gmail for deciding "Oh, this mail looks important, let's tag it". Dude. I put an "important" tag on the mails I want to be tagged "important", stop doing that, I didn't ask you to do that.
In fact, I didn't ask anything but Gmail loves to do things on its own. (Precision : I host my personnal emails, I have a gmail account because I'm in an association which mails are at Gmail. But now I forward all gmail's mails to a box on my server)

In fact, most suck at it. Web based email clients mostly fail when it comes to filtering.


The best filtering is Sieve filtering. It's (usually) on the mail server, so you don't care of using webmail or desktop client and it's really powerful if you stop to use the clic-clic interface and write your sieve filter by hand (really simple script language).

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Postby fox » 04 Sep 2013, 00:32

ITT: writing sieve filters by hand is something people actually do because gmail is just not good enough

e: raging over important badge lool

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Re: Sync Thunderbird and TT-RSS

Postby slemapa » 04 Sep 2013, 01:18

fox wrote:
slemapa wrote:You know, a web based MUA is just another mail client and there are really not many good web based ones.


One is enough. Outlook.com is pretty okay too.


No, it sucks. It can't handle IDN, it does not thread correctly etc.

fox wrote:
First of all, they are way slower than desktop clients.


I'm not sure if you have heard about it what with you writing us from 1990, but we people of 2013 generally have fast enough internet access which makes this argument void.


No, it is not about how fast pages are loaded over the net. You know, I've been on 100 Mb/s for the last 7 years, sometimes more than 100Mb/s using link aggregation. You are just dead wrong. It is about how fast the interface is and what features it gives you. It is about how fast you can read, respond (to all, to sender, to list), delete, move and write email etc and page load time hasn't been an issue for years. I have used gmail, outlook web client (or whatever the client is called, maybe exchange webmail), hotmail, the stuff that came after hotmail (outlook), horde, squirrelmail, the stuff that sun used, roundcube among others. I have tested them for features - how well they support IDN, utf-8 local part, html email, threading etc and web based mail clients are not very good. They do not do a good job besides being, well, just web based. The one and only advantage is being web based but sadly they lack many other features.

fox wrote:
Second, there are no good ones. Gmail, hotmail etc does not even allow IDN, an old standard. The only IDN aware web based email client I know of is roundcube, the rest sucks badly.


Okay see nobody actually cares about this. Try to understand that. What people care about is not needing to install some stupid .exe because email. Which is why nobody is doing that and outside of people who suffer outlook at work the market for desktop MUAs has been dead for years.


Well, there are people who do care about it, for example I do and many besides me, as many of my friends.
Yes, many people don't care about IDN and pgp because they are lethargic losers. They mostly use email for messages to and from other lethargic losers, they get one or tops 10 emails a day and they have no problem what so ever with google, ms, or apple reading their email and sending stuff to NSA. They have no clue about sending email to IDN:s because they don't even know what an IDN is and most companies etc are forced to comply with the lack of standard compliance of the fucked up web mail clients. The have no clue about gpg because they think email is "secure". Basically, most people are just lethargic loser when it comes to email.
And you advocate that this is ok!?!?! It is a sad day. It's like in the days of the browser wars with badly fucked up browsers. Thanks to standardization and some pressure on (mostly) ms we are in a better place know.


fox wrote:
They are ok for people not using IDN, for people who do not get a lot of email, for people who do not use gpg and for people who do not follow a lot of lists, but for everyone else - FAIL.


What you mean to say is they are okay for everyone save for a handful of - I dunno, not even nerds, because nerds use gmail or w/e - maybe super nerds? Hyper sperg nerds? Something like that.


I say web mail clients are ok for people who don't know better or just don't need some of the, really basic, features that most desktop clients give you. Following a discussion with, lets say, 50 emails is a pain without correct threading. I have yet to see one web based mail client that threads ok. Gmail does not. Hotmail, and whatever followed, does not. Grouping email based on subject is not threading, it is just brain dead. Ok, roundcube is almost ok.
Yes, using pgp/gpg is for nerds because the web based mail clients don't let you use it.

It is ok to use gmail etc if you dont have higher standards when it comes to email or if you value web access that high, but to rule out desktop clients just because they are desktop clients is not a very good argument. But really, there is a better alternative - use both.


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