offloading dojo.js loading?

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Re: offloading dojo.js loading?

Postby vapier » 29 May 2013, 11:14

phz wrote:Currently, if one runs the TT-RSS backend on a local machine (which probably is very common), it is possible to access TT-RSS even if the internet connection is down, which is actually quite a nifty feature.


that is handy. my expectation is that since an offline rss server is generally useless (can't fetch feeds), then that isn't a common use case. but it is a reasonable one to not break.

sleeper_service wrote:well, fox, it's obvious, he wants to pay you to dissect google's dojo.js and compare it funciton by funciton, perhaps line by line, to the one in ttrss.


the Google one is stock dojo.js (and weighs in at 115k). the one in ttrss is not (it's about 135k and built by the dojo shell script in the ttrss tree). hence i'm asking if people are familiar with this difference and know the answer off the top of their head. perhaps it's just a matter of being built with different minimizers.

blainemono wrote:...


if your only contribution is to attack people, then better you waste your time elsewhere since posts like this aren't useful in any way

fox wrote:Due to the nature of tt-rss license I can't prohibit you doing whatever with the source, which includes printing it out and wiping your butt with it. If you want it, by all means, load dojo from CDN. Nobody is stopping you.


i understand how open source licensing works. my point is to make contributions that others would find useful -- that's one of the fundamental points to open source afterall. considering the CDN Google offers is often used by other sites, the file is commonly already cached on user's systems which means it won't be fetched at all (cache is shared across sites since the source URL is all that matters here).

fox wrote:It will stay the way it is now in trunk for reasons outlined in above posts in this thread - which involves privacy concerns (I personally don't give two shits about) and independence of third party run services (which I care about).


which is why i suggested a config knob so people can easily pick what kind of setup they want. but you have no interest in that, so i guess it doesn't matter. i can host it in my forked repo on a custom branch for others to cherry pick.

fox wrote:
vapier wrote:the dojo.js that comes with ttrss seems to be slightly different.


That's scientific approach right there.


aka you have no idea why there's a difference and you have no interest in helping. saying that rather than constantly being snarky fosters a better community, but i suspect that doesn't really interest you either.

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Re: offloading dojo.js loading?

Postby fox » 29 May 2013, 11:21

>while my php is rusty, my js is non-existent ;)

Lucky bastard.

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Re: offloading dojo.js loading?

Postby sleeper_service » 29 May 2013, 11:44

vapier wrote:aka you have no idea why there's a difference and you have no interest in helping. saying that rather than constantly being snarky fosters a better community, but i suspect that doesn't really interest you either.


in my fairly brief time here, I can pretty much guarantee you that this community isn't interested in self important newbies coming in and telling Fox how to make this a better community.

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Re: offloading dojo.js loading?

Postby blainemono » 29 May 2013, 11:53

sleeper_service wrote:this community isn't interested in self important newbies


I beg to differ. The bistro is always hungry.

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Re: offloading dojo.js loading?

Postby macfly » 29 May 2013, 11:57

vapier wrote:i understand how open source licensing works. my point is to make contributions that others would find useful -- that's one of the fundamental points to open source afterall. considering the CDN Google offers is often used by other sites, the file is commonly already cached on user's systems which means it won't be fetched at all (cache is shared across sites since the source URL is all that matters here).


Why don't you do a git clone, change the init (or whereever dojo is loaded) to get it from google, generate a diff and post it to the forum?

This way

- you will be happy
- other that wants this, will be happy and maybe say "thanks"
- fox could count the "thanks" to get an impression how important this feature is for other..

just my 0.01€

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Re: offloading dojo.js loading?

Postby sleeper_service » 29 May 2013, 12:30

blainemono wrote:
sleeper_service wrote:this community isn't interested in self important newbies


I beg to differ. The bistro is always hungry.


well, but you're *special* :D

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Re: offloading dojo.js loading?

Postby phz » 29 May 2013, 12:35

vapier wrote:
phz wrote:Currently, if one runs the TT-RSS backend on a local machine (which probably is very common), it is possible to access TT-RSS even if the internet connection is down, which is actually quite a nifty feature.


that is handy. my expectation is that since an offline rss server is generally useless (can't fetch feeds), then that isn't a common use case. but it is a reasonable one to not break.

I didn't say it concerned a permanently offline TT-RSS installation which I concur would be a limited use case. I said: "if the internet connection is down", implying that there exists an "up". Connections can come and go, but the item archive will be present even if the connection is down. I used this just a couple of days ago when the net connection was intermittently unavailable: I could still sift through the posts that TT-RSS had collected during times of internet connectivity on my local instance.

There are more reasons for self-hosting that have been lifted in the thread, so it won't be in mainline, as per Fox's proclamations. But also, as said numerous times: `git clone`, change, publish (last step optional).

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Re: offloading dojo.js loading?

Postby vapier » 29 May 2013, 12:51

sleeper_service wrote:
vapier wrote:aka you have no idea why there's a difference and you have no interest in helping. saying that rather than constantly being snarky fosters a better community, but i suspect that doesn't really interest you either.


in my fairly brief time here, I can pretty much guarantee you that this community isn't interested in self important newbies coming in and telling Fox how to make this a better community.


i joined here to exchange ideas, not barbs. if i wanted to do the latter, i'd hang out in 4chan where at least people are imaginative & entertaining.

if the default response to questions/suggestions are dismissive/vague answers and ad-hominem attacks, then it sounds like things are already a bit sour. that tends to lead to insular/shrinking rather than welcoming/expanding communities. perhaps that's what most people here prefer (can't say all as there has been actually useful posts here by one or two people thus far).

normally you'd look to the head of the project (aka fox) to set the tone, but it seems he has. i can't tell if it's a cultural/language barrier, or he's just angry most of the time, or doesn't care, or something else. his posts seem to bounce all over.

macfly wrote:Why don't you do a git clone, change the init (or whereever dojo is loaded) to get it from google, generate a diff and post it to the forum?

This way

- you will be happy
- other that wants this, will be happy and maybe say "thanks"
- fox could count the "thanks" to get an impression how important this feature is for other..


the actual work to support it myself is trivial (forking/branching/etc...). i'm not worried about those mundane details. but i don't think posting patches here will really matter as people can just as easily vote on a post proposing an idea as on an attached patch.

random patches posted to forums are generally a terrible way to do distribution. when you get beyond one, it can easily become a pain to manage (as it is, discovery+fetching+applying is anything but smooth). that's why getting merged with mainline benefits people the most as then the barrier to use/try out is nil.

phz wrote:I didn't say it concerned a permanently offline TT-RSS installation


nor did i say permanently offline. but nitpicking semantics here isn't going anywhere as your fundamental point was made (and acknowledged).

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Re: offloading dojo.js loading?

Postby sleeper_service » 29 May 2013, 13:07

vapier wrote:
sleeper_service wrote:
vapier wrote:aka you have no idea why there's a difference and you have no interest in helping. saying that rather than constantly being snarky fosters a better community, but i suspect that doesn't really interest you either.


in my fairly brief time here, I can pretty much guarantee you that this community isn't interested in self important newbies coming in and telling Fox how to make this a better community.


i joined here to exchange ideas, not barbs. if i wanted to do the latter, i'd hang out in 4chan where at least people are imaginative & entertaining.

if the default response to questions/suggestions are dismissive/vague answers and ad-hominem attacks, then it sounds like things are already a bit sour. that tends to lead to insular/shrinking rather than welcoming/expanding communities. perhaps that's what most people here prefer (can't say all as there has been actually useful posts here by one or two people thus far).

normally you'd look to the head of the project (aka fox) to set the tone, but it seems he has. i can't tell if it's a cultural/language barrier, or he's just angry most of the time, or doesn't care, or something else. his posts seem to bounce all over.


well, speaking for myself, I've reported a few bugs, they've *all* been fixed *promptly* I've suggested a couple of changes, and they've been looked at, and either implemented or not, but there's not been any "dismissive/vague answers and ad-hominem attacks" in response. perhaps it's your attitude and combative nature when people didn't immediately support your proposition?

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Re: offloading dojo.js loading?

Postby fox » 29 May 2013, 13:08

Recipe to get started in any community:

1. Make increasingly insufferable self-important posts about how shit everything is;
2. Lament on plebes not appreciating your delicate genius;
3. Reading replies is optional;

Satisfaction guaranteed. Bears repeating.

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Re: offloading dojo.js loading?

Postby blainemono » 29 May 2013, 13:10

vapier wrote:i joined here to exchange ideas, not barbs.


And ideas were exchanged, weren't they? Too bad yours is such a stupid one.

vapier wrote:if the default response to questions/suggestions are dismissive/vague answers and ad-hominem attacks, then it sounds like things are already a bit sour. that tends to lead to insular/shrinking rather than welcoming/expanding communities.


Please expound on that community-growing wisdom of yours: how do inane ramblings of dimwits affect the growth?


vapier wrote:the actual work to support it myself is trivial (forking/branching/etc...). i'm not worried about those mundane details. but i don't think posting patches here will really matter as people can just as easily vote on a post proposing an idea as on an attached patch.


You are all about the big picture, aren't you. Thinker, idea maker, leader of men.

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Re: offloading dojo.js loading?

Postby fox » 29 May 2013, 13:11

vapier wrote:i joined here to exchange ideas, not barbs. if i wanted to do the latter, i'd hang out in 4chan where at least people are imaginative & entertaining.


Well, it's somewhat entertaining from where I'm standing. Solid 3/5.

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Re: offloading dojo.js loading?

Postby xtaz » 29 May 2013, 13:37

I've mentioned this before, but the other reason loading libs from CDNs is a bad idea going forward is that the SPDY protocol is being used more often and is likely to become part of HTTP/2.0 in the future. This significantly speeds up page load times as long as it's used properly. Properly means that all page content is loaded over the same TCP connection. When this happens the protocol optimises the delivery of that content. If it's loaded over multiple connections from different domains then this can't happen and it will slow down the page load.

Further reading: http://www.guypo.com/technical/not-as-s ... u-thought/

The idea that the files will already be cached from CDNs is a bit irrelevant in my opinion as OK it might affect the very first page load, but after that it will be cached from your own website instead, so does it really make that much of a difference?

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Re: offloading dojo.js loading?

Postby phz » 29 May 2013, 16:36

vapier wrote:nor did i say permanently offline. but nitpicking semantics here isn't going anywhere as your fundamental point was made (and acknowledged).

My interpretation comes from that you said:
vapier wrote:[...] since an offline rss server is generally useless (can't fetch feeds), then that isn't a common use case.

A feed aggregator that can't catch feeds would indeed be useless, but that is only the case if it is permanently offline, since it is exactly an "aggregator". Just wanted to clarify that I saw it as an implied statement rather than "making up other people's standpoints".

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Re: offloading dojo.js loading?

Postby vapier » 29 May 2013, 19:00

sleeper_service wrote:well, speaking for myself, I've reported a few bugs, they've *all* been fixed *promptly* I've suggested a couple of changes, and they've been looked at, and either implemented or not, but there's not been any "dismissive/vague answers and ad-hominem attacks" in response. perhaps it's your attitude and combative nature when people didn't immediately support your proposition?


if you don't read the actual thread w/posts, then i guess your resulting take away won't line up w/reality

fox wrote:Recipe to get started in any community:

1. Make increasingly insufferable self-important posts about how shit everything is;
2. Lament on plebes not appreciating your delicate genius;
3. Reading replies is optional;


if you read the actual points i made, i wasn't lamenting people "not appreciating my delicate genius", but the replies that skim over the technical details while simultaneously dismissing ideas and people. when actual technical points get made, they get discussed, and that often means differing view points.

blainemono wrote:...


thanks for basically proving my point while simultaneously contributing nothing of value here (again)

xtaz wrote:I've mentioned this before, but the other reason loading libs from CDNs is a bad idea going forward is that the SPDY protocol is being used more often and is likely to become part of HTTP/2.0 in the future. This significantly speeds up page load times as long as it's used properly. Properly means that all page content is loaded over the same TCP connection. When this happens the protocol optimises the delivery of that content. If it's loaded over multiple connections from different domains then this can't happen and it will slow down the page load.

Further reading: http://www.guypo.com/technical/not-as-s ... u-thought/


interesting. so make it conditional upon use of https && mod_spdy being loaded ? ;)

his tests don't involve actually talking to a native SDPY server but using a SPDY proxy. so i suspect his results might paint a worse picture than reality. would be a lot more interesting if servers started supporting SPDY so real apples-to-apples comparisons could be made. with MS putting forth its own competing HTTP/2.0 proposal though, it might take a while for that to become a reality :(.

i've already enabled mod_spdy on my server (as has Google), so doing some basic tests should be feasible.

xtaz wrote:The idea that the files will already be cached from CDNs is a bit irrelevant in my opinion as OK it might affect the very first page load, but after that it will be cached from your own website instead, so does it really make that much of a difference?


it'll be cached on the first and every connection, as well as visiting other sites. it's one of those "the more people do it, the more it pays off". i suspect many people have fast/local connections between their clients and the server and so don't care as much about improving overall latency.

phz wrote:My interpretation comes from that you said:


fair enough; my response wasn't entirely clear and could be seen either way


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